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 Post subject: Darwin, Pigeons, and Genetics
PostPosted: Thu Jan 29, 2009 12:06 am 
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I just posted a similar question on this to the HOPOS listserv, but thought I'd post it here too. If I get interesting or informative responses from HOPOS, I'll post them in the reply:

In my undergraduate Philosophy of Biology course, we are reading On the Origin of Species. In the first chapter, Darwin discusses some of his experiments with breeding pigeons, even describing crossing F1 generations. See p. 25 of the 1st edition (I'm using the facsimile from HUP):

Darwin wrote:
I crossed some uniformly white fantails with some uniformly black barbs, and they produced mottled brown and black birds; these I again crossed together, and one grandchild of the pure white fantail and pure black barb was of as beautiful a blue colour, with the white rump, double black wing-bar, and barred and white-edged tail-feathers, as any wild rock-pigeon!

In this passage, Darwin is thinking about reversion to ancestral characters. My students and I, though, were curious as to why he didn't discover a theory of genetics based on these experiments. I had some speculative thoughts (e.g., he didn't produce enough generations; pigeon genetics are more complicated than pea plant genetics, etc.), but nothing concrete.

Is anyone aware of any articles or resources or simply have informative thoughts on this topic?

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 Post subject: Re: Darwin, Pigeons, and Genetics
PostPosted: Thu Jan 29, 2009 12:30 am 
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I can add my speculative thoughts to your speculative thoughts (which seem reasonable): Darwin wasn't as much of a mathematician as Mendel was, and wasn't "preadapted" to notice the mathematical patterns and infer backward to "factors" (genes).

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 Post subject: Re: Darwin, Pigeons, and Genetics
PostPosted: Sat Jan 31, 2009 1:59 pm 
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This is from memory (so I could be getting this wrong), but a few points (maybe unrelated to the original question...)
1- Darwin picked pigeons because it was a fashionable hobby at the time (tons of breeding books on the topic + see quote below)
2- it had just been "discovered" at the time (a few years before the publication of the origin I think) that all the fancy pigeons were all in fact varieties of the rock pigeon (whereas it had been believed before that different species had been blended)
This takes us back to the raison d'être of the 1st chapter of the Origin: make an analogy between what breeders already knew and what Darwin wanted to propose for nature at large. Add that to the fact that people were getting used to idea (independently of Darwin) that rock pigeons were the common ancestors of all those fancy pigeons and you had a nice example for Darwin's theory (common origin + descent with modification). I'll just add a quote here

"A severe winter, or a scarcity of food, by destroying the weak and the unhealthy, has all the good effects of the most skilful selection”

Who wrote this and where?

Sir John Sebright in The Art of Improving the Breeds of Domestic Animals (1809)*, where he writes, among other topics, on the breeding of pigeons. Darwin mentions Sebright all over the place.

Selection was definitely in the air

*1809 again: Why isn't this the year of evolution (no slight to my astronomer friends)? 1859 for the Origin of course, 1809 for Darwin's birth, but also, 1809 publication of Lamarck's Philosophie zoologique, ou Exposition des considérations relatives à l’histoire naturelle des animaux. Sebright obviously doesn't have the same stature, come on! 2009 is to me the year of transformism!!!

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 Post subject: Re: Darwin, Pigeons, and Genetics
PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 7:23 am 
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rmillstein wrote:
I can add my speculative thoughts to your speculative thoughts (which seem reasonable): Darwin wasn't as much of a mathematician as Mendel was, and wasn't "preadapted" to notice the mathematical patterns and infer backward to "factors" (genes).

i would say your speculation is correct i read he that he studied math as a young man but also remembers that “it was repugnant to me.” He dismissed complex mathematical arguments and wrote to a friend, “I have no faith in anything short of actual measurement and the Rule of Three,” where the “Rule of Three” was an extremely simple mathematical calculation.

But history played a joke on the great biologist: It made him a contributor to the development of statistics.


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 Post subject: Re: Darwin, Pigeons, and Genetics
PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 11:26 pm 
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Thanks viator, that's really interesting. Your post also jogged my memory that I was going to post interesting response I got from HOPOS. Here's a collection of what I received:

Greg Radick wrote:
In haste, here's a few of things to consider and places to read about them:

(1) Darwin did have a theory of heredity, called pangenesis, which he published in 1868; and there's actually a line you can draw historically between that theory and Mendelian theory. For a decent popular tracing of that line, see the first third or so of James Schwartz's IN PURSUIT OF THE GENE: FROM DARWIN TO DNA (Harvard, 2008). Peter Bowler's THE MENDELIAN REVOLUTION (ca. 1990) is also still useful if dated in certain ways.

(2) However, Darwin conceived his studies of heredity as part of wider studies on "generation" -- an old category that linked heredity with reproduction, the healing of wounds, and other phenomena to do with the production of new living tissue. Hybridization studies took their place in a much more heterogeneous set of inquiries than one might expect. To get a feel for how different Darwin's conception was from what emerged 30 or so years later, check out Jim Endersby's summary in his chapter in THE CAMBRIDGE COMPANION TO DARWIN, eds. Hodge and Radick (2003, 2nd edition imminent) and, more extensively, Jon Hodge, "Darwin as a Lifelong Generation Theorist", in THE DARWINIAN HERITAGE, ed. Kohn (1985), and just reprinted in the second volume of Jon's collected papers, out with Ashgate Press.

(3) Not what your students are looking for, but they might also check out Desmond and Moore's new DARWIN'S SACRED CAUSE, which brilliantly shows how questions of hybridization, including what experimental hybridization reveals about pigeon ancestry, were all caught up with questions about human unity and American slavery when Darwin did his own pigeon breeding experiments.

Ian McKay wrote:
My guess would be that feather colour in pigeons, like hair colour and skin colour in many animals, is determined by multiple genes, not single genes. It would therefore be difficult to infer any simple mathematical rules of heredity from the results of Darwin's breeding experiments.

By contrast, the phenotypic traits that Mendel chose to study in pea plants were all examples of single-gene inheritance. Indeed, some authors think he must have selected these traits on that basis.

Jim Lennox wrote:
I want to strongly second Dr. McKay's note. You might have your students compare the material in ch. 1 on pigeon breeding with the later chapter on Hybridism, and especially the section entitled 'Hybrids and Mongrels Compared, independently of their Fertility' (272-6 in the Harvard facsimile). Darwin has studied the work of Kollreuter and Gartner very carefully (their work got Mendel excited about finding a law governing hybrid series), but because that work lacks the understanding of statistics and experimental controls that we see in Mendel's description of his methods, no consistent picture emerges.
Even more fun for your students, if they know a bit about Mendel's work, is to look at Darwin's discussion of Peas in The Variation of Animals and Plants Under Domestication, chapter 9, published in 1868, two years after Mendel's paper was published. Most of the characters that Mendel isolates for crossing are noted by Darwin, and he constantly notes that specialists talk about how the different varieties breed true for these characters, but it is apparently of little interest to Darwin what would happen if these true breeding varieties were crossed, other than whether the hybrid crosses are fertile or not. Darwin is very interested in the fact that while Pisum is treated by botanists as a genus with many species, and while there is a tendency for the varieties to breed true and not cross if left to themselves, they can easily be crossed and the resulting hybrids are fertile--one more example of the standard means of distinguishing species and variety breaking down. That seems to be the result he is most interested in.

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 Post subject: Re: Darwin, Pigeons, and Genetics
PostPosted: Tue Aug 25, 2009 1:01 am 
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when and how to join HOPOS listserv? :?:


Last edited by haber on Wed Aug 26, 2009 2:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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 Post subject: Re: Darwin, Pigeons, and Genetics
PostPosted: Wed Aug 26, 2009 2:59 pm 
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johngilda87 wrote:
when and how to join HOPOS listserv? :?:


Send an email to:

listserv [at] listserv.vt.edu

With the following line only as the text:

subscribe hopos-l Your Name

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